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 Despre cer

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 10, 2010 9:59 am

si normal... trece peste mintea umana. Idea
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 10, 2010 11:30 am

Arcangelo a scris:
In postarea precedenta,regasesc o minte care nu are nici un fel de contact cu realitatea.E total "cereasca". Suspect
Numai o astfel de minte poate confunda credințele/convingerile cu demonstrațiile/dovezile.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Lun Oct 11, 2010 6:40 pm

totyo a scris:
corect.

doar ca, in atotstiinta lui Dumnezeu, El stia ca Israel va face alegeri gresite( ca peste tot in intregul sau istoric)... iar ca urmare trebuia sa se implineasca ceea ce s-a spus in Geneza 3/ 15

Samanta respectiva este Dumnezeiasca... la fel si cel care este nascut din Dumnezeu! (aici e problemaaa... samanta care te naste din Dumnezeu, este Duhul lui Dumnezeu... acelasi Duh care a dat nastere Mantuitorului.)
pe cand samanta asta a noastra este supusa puterzirii/ mortii, dupa cum bine stim si vedem.

curand, Israel va stapanii lumea impreuna cu Isus( acelasi Isus care a fost ucis acum 2000 si ceva de ani.)... aceata este imparatia pe care o asteptati voi, si va venii cu siguranta
pe cand imparatia lui Dumnezeu a existat, exista si va exista vesnic.
multe profetii biblice s-au implinit, altele urmeaza sa se implineasca.... cu sau fara noi.

Ba fratilor.cum sa impac eu capra aceasta ;ca Duhul lui Dumnezeu este saminta lui Dumnezeu.
Iar in alta parte este Dumnezeu adevarat.
Mai mult ,este si putin afemeiat,stiti cum sa dus la Marioara si lasat-o gravida si a pus vina pe Tatal.
Iar varza este ca ;Isus va veni si va stapini lumea cu Israelul.
Asta poate fiindca a fost omorit de romani si romanii au pus vina pe noi acum vine sa ne consoleze.
Era si normal ,ca de 2000 de ani biserica ne-a biciuit intr-una pentru ca l-am omorit pe dumnezeu.
Dar acum nu inteleg.daca Isus vine sa stapineasca lumea cu noi,cine va fi in imparatia aceea a lui Dumnezeu,daca Isus va fi aici?
.Apopii,Soimos si poate domnul Bogdan Stanoiu,pe care nu-l cunosc ci numai superficial din anumite postari,ma ajutati putin sa inteleg dilema asta a lui totyo?
Ca multe aberatii am vazut la viata mea dar asta nu am intilnito inca.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mar Oct 12, 2010 4:51 am

Zau ca te-as ajuta cu mare drag, daca as pricepe si eu. Mai mult decat sa inteleg ca stie mai bine ca voi ce asteptati si mai bine ca dumnezeu ce fel de samanta are... nu reusesc sa deslusesc din aberatie!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mar Oct 12, 2010 9:08 am

totyo a scris:
corect.

doar ca, in atotstiinta lui Dumnezeu, El stia ca Israel va face alegeri gresite( ca peste tot in intregul sau istoric)... iar ca urmare trebuia sa se implineasca ceea ce s-a spus in Geneza 3/ 15

.
Lasa tu ideile acestea tampite ...si intelege ca e vorba de GNOZA .... adica de Cunoastere Rationala !

...si aici nu e loc de Metafizica si alte chestii "culturale" ...p0e care tot iti place sa le amesteci!

Pana una alta ....Dumnezeu inca nu exista ...decat in mintile unor oameni primitivi ...asa cum esti si tu!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mar Oct 12, 2010 9:12 am

totyo a scris:
corect.

doar ca, in atotstiinta lui Dumnezeu, El stia ca Israel va face alegeri gresite( ca peste tot in intregul sau istoric)... iar ca urmare trebuia sa se implineasca ceea ce s-a spus in Geneza 3/ 15

.
Lasa tu ideile acestea tampite ...si intelege ca e vorba de GNOZA .... adica de Cunoastere Rationala ...bazata pe formule matematice .... si bineinteles pe baza de formule demonstrabile si demonstrate din astrofizica!

...si aici nu e loc de Metafizica si alte chestii "culturale" ...pe care tot iti place sa le amesteci!

Pana una alta ....Dumnezeu inca nu exista ...decat in mintile unor oameni primitivi ...asa cum esti si tu!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 14, 2010 2:19 pm

Atotstiinta si Dumnezeu!

....adica vorbim de una si aceeasi persoana care in calitatea Lui de Maimuta Supranaturala .... (care ne-a creat dupa chipul si asemanarea Sa) .... nici macar nu stia sa explice de ce tuna si fulgera?

Pai ce acela e Dumnezeu?


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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 14, 2010 6:52 pm

Nu mey ...da m-am aflat in treaba sa-i explic ceva unuia care nu a inteles faptul ca nu tot ceea ce e maimuta .... e si Dumnezeu!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 17, 2010 6:40 am

ie ie... mda!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mier Oct 20, 2010 9:04 am

Anticristul a scris:
Cum sa nu te inteleg?
Dar nu exista 2 imparatii.
Se numeste imparatia lui Dumnezeusau imparatia cerului,ca este sub conducerea lui Dumnezeu ,dar este una si aceeasi problema.
Doar tu cunosti ;Tatal nostru.
Vie imparatia ta,
Faca se voia ta.
Precum in cer asa si pe pamint.
Iata ca Isus nu ia indus in eroare pe ucenici sa le promita o imparatie in cer.
Ci una cereasca pe pamint.

Si pe aceea o putem astepta mult si bine .... pentru ca ne-urmand invataturile lui Isus ...ci pe cele ale lui Pavel (vandute ca fiind ale ale lui Isus) ... nu avem decat sa asteptam "imparatia lui Pavel" ... care va sa vina ...la "Sfantul Asteapta"...!

In concluzie ... toata imparatia lui Isus ...cea atat de asteptata ... s-a dus pe apa sambetei ...cel putin ptr crestini !
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mier Oct 20, 2010 10:24 am

Soimos a scris:

Si pe aceea o putem astepta mult si bine .... pentru ca ne-urmand invataturile lui Isus ...ci pe cele ale lui Pavel (vandute ca fiind ale ale lui Isus) ... nu avem decat sa asteptam "imparatia lui Pavel" ... care va sa vina ...la "Sfantul Asteapta"...!

In concluzie ... toata imparatia lui Isus ...cea atat de asteptata ... s-a dus pe apa sambetei ...cel putin ptr crestini !
Si crezi ca pentru ceilalti va veni vreo imparatie din ceruri? Poate doar cea a extraterestrilor, daca o fi existand si daca s-or gandi cumva sa-i extermine pe pamanteni si sa-si faca ei culcus aici!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mier Oct 20, 2010 3:01 pm

Black velvet a scris:
[...] Poate doar cea a extraterestrilor[...]
Sa nu-i ispitim...
Astrofizicienii au ajuns la concluzia ca, daca exista undeva in univers o civilizatie atat de dezvoltata incat sa poata construi o "gaura de vierme", noua ne-ar fi imposibil sa-i intelegem tehnologia. S-a facut o comparatie de genul: ar fi ca si cum am incerca sa-i explicam unei amibe cum functioneaza o racheta...si ne-am astepta ca saracuta de ea sa priceapa.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mier Oct 20, 2010 5:15 pm

toti o apa si-un pamant.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mier Oct 20, 2010 5:47 pm

Black velvet a scris:

Si crezi ca pentru ceilalti va veni vreo imparatie din ceruri? Poate doar cea a extraterestrilor, daca o fi existand si daca s-or gandi cumva sa-i extermine pe pamanteni si sa-si faca ei culcus aici!

Daca chiar te intereseaza parerea mea ... atunci afla te rog ca ptr mine cerul este un alt Univers ... recte cel format in interiorul parintilor nostrii ...adica cel din care ne tragem cu totii la modul cel mai real!

De unde si concluzia mea finala ... precum ca nu exista alt Dumnezeii, decat parintii nostrii, care ne-au dat viata si ne-au ajutat sa devenim oamenii!!



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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 5:39 am

Inteleg ce spui. Dar dumnezeu nu poate avea alt inteles decat religios. Este un produs al religiei, la fel si cerul biblic. Stiu ca este greu sa exprimi o idee nereligioasa folosind aceste cuvinte.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 8:27 am

Inteleg si eu ceea ce spui tu!

Dar cum parintii nostri sunt de fapt Creatorii nostrii ... plecand de la aceasta premisa, trebuie sa-i consideram ca Dumnezei nostri personali ai fiecaruia dintre noi!

Si iata pentru ce trebuie iubiti si respectati ca atare!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 10:02 am

Soimos a scris:
Dar cum parintii nostri sunt de fapt Creatorii nostrii ... plecand de la aceasta premisa, trebuie sa-i consideram ca Dumnezei nostri

Dumnezeu este cel care a exterminat oamenii la Potop, in Sodoma si Gomora (ca sa le spun doar pe cele mai importante si pe care le-a infaptuit direct cu manuta sa, conform bibliei!), tot el este cel care a instigat la alte crime, violuri, pruncucideri, incest, jaf, etc. In acest context, nu cred ca am putea sa ne numim parintii drept dumnezei, oricat de mult i-am ura!
Cei ce au avut parte de parinti iubitori pot sa-i numeasca, eventual, Creatorii sai si sa-i considere sacri, dar nu dumnezei, deoarece acest cuvant poarta in spate toate faradelegile comise in biblie si atribuite acestui zeu!

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 10:35 am

Ma rog! Fie cum vrei tu!

Dar in Biblie (de fapt in Tanach) este vorba de mai multi Dumnezei!

Iata un exemplu in Psalmul 821. (Un psalm al lui Asaf.) si aici il vedem pe Dumnezeu care sta in adunarea lui Dumnezeu si il vedem pe El judeca in mijlocul dumnezeilor.

http://www.ebible.ro/biblia/romana/cornilescu/psalmi/82/1/#1

Asta in afara de faptul ca Dumnezeul evreilor (al religiei mozaice) este Yahwe(YHWH) dar dumnezeul lui Isus este Elohim, adica Eloah in limba materna a lui Isus (aramaica) ... ceea ce in araba se numeste Allah!
(remember: Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani)

In plus de asta Dumnezeul religiei Mozaice, este un mic zeu tribal, fata de alti zei si Dumnezei ai vremurilor de atunci ...si doar faptul ca ucigasul Constantin l-a impus cu forta si prin santaj in bisericile sale, au facut ca acel Dumnezeu sa fie Dumnezeul Unic si Mare ... dar si asta numai dupa ce a fost corcit cu puterea altor zei!

Asa ca Dumnezeu nu este nici unic ... nici atotputernic ... si cu atat mai putin "drept"!

In concluzie trebuie sa ne ferim in a-l privi ca pe un Dumnezeu Unic ... si la fel trebuie sa ii consideram pe parintii nostrii ca pe niste adevarati "Dumnezei personali" ... care ne-au adus pe lume din dragoste si ne-au crescut cu drag pana ne-am luat singuri zborul!!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 2:12 pm

Da, asa este, dar ceea ce nu inteleg eu este: de ce trebuie sa extrapolam numele inventiei lui Moise (Yahweh, dumnezeu si cate nume o mai fi avut de-a lungul timpului) asupra unor lucruri bune, cand aceasta inventie este descrisa, prin faptele sale, ca fiind una malefica, indiferent ca este vorba de biblie sau tanach.
Nu stiu cum sa ma exprim mai clar, dar stiu un lucru, cu numele unuia rau nu-i numesti pe cei care-ti sunt dragi!
Poate as fi cu inima mai impacata, daca l-as auzi pe un satanist spunand despre parintii sai, pe care-i iubeste, ca sunt ”Satanii sai personali”, macar Satan n-a omorat pe nimeni, n-a indemnat pe nimeni la crime si viol si mai era si razvratit impotriva dictaturii lui dumnezeu. Zau asa, spune-mi si mie daca stii, de ce acest personaj biblic este considerat ca fiind rau?

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 2:43 pm

Soimos a scris:


Dar in Biblie (de fapt in Tanach) este vorba de mai multi Dumnezei!

Iata un exemplu in Psalmul 821. (Un psalm al lui Asaf.) si aici il vedem pe Dumnezeu care sta in adunarea lui Dumnezeu si il vedem pe El judeca in mijlocul dumnezeilor.

http://www.ebible.ro/biblia/romana/cornilescu/psalmi/82/1/#1

Nu cunosteam continutul psalmului. Am citit si am ramas surprinsa. Pana la urma, cine erau toti acei dumnezei?
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 4:17 pm

Ii gasesti in Geneza la cap. 6 sub denumirea de Fii lui Dumnezeu ...adica aceia care au "intrat la fetele oamenilor" si s-au inmultit cu ele!

De fapt sunt acei ingeri colonizatori = "nephilimi"... cei care i-au invatat pe oameni mestesugurile ... adica fii lui Dumnezeu ....care au intrat la fetele oamenilor si ulterior s-au nascut acei "Uriasi".

Ingerii decazuti sau nephilimi,sint acei din geneza numiti "fiii de D-zeu" ... "benej ha'elohim ( בני היי )" ("Fii lui, ai lui Dumnezeu"

.... In cartea lui Enoh sunt entitati ceresti sub forma de ingeri decazuti ... ei erau mai mari si mai puternici ca oamenii (ex ca Dumnezeu biblic)
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Joi Oct 21, 2010 7:51 pm

Soimos a scris:
Ma rog! Fie cum vrei tu!

Dar in Biblie (de fapt in Tanach) este vorba de mai multi Dumnezei!

Iata un exemplu in Psalmul 821. (Un psalm al lui Asaf.) si aici il vedem pe Dumnezeu care sta in adunarea lui Dumnezeu si il vedem pe El judeca in mijlocul dumnezeilor.

http://www.ebible.ro/biblia/romana/cornilescu/psalmi/82/1/#1

Asta in afara de faptul ca Dumnezeul evreilor (al religiei mozaice) este Yahwe(YHWH) dar dumnezeul lui Isus este Elohim, adica Eloah in limba materna a lui Isus (aramaica) ... ceea ce in araba se numeste Allah!
(remember: Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani)

In plus de asta Dumnezeul religiei Mozaice, este un mic zeu tribal, fata de alti zei si Dumnezei ai vremurilor de atunci ...si doar faptul ca ucigasul Constantin l-a impus cu forta si prin santaj in bisericile sale, au facut ca acel Dumnezeu sa fie Dumnezeul Unic si Mare ... dar si asta numai dupa ce a fost corcit cu puterea altor zei!

Asa ca Dumnezeu nu este nici unic ... nici atotputernic ... si cu atat mai putin "drept"!

In concluzie trebuie sa ne ferim in a-l privi ca pe un Dumnezeu Unic ... si la fel trebuie sa ii consideram pe parintii nostrii ca pe niste adevarati "Dumnezei personali" ... care ne-au adus pe lume din dragoste si ne-au crescut cu drag pana ne-am luat singuri zborul!!
Soimosescule, nu vreau sa te contrazic ,ci vreau sa aduc doar citeva lamuriri.
In romaneste asa este scris cum spui,si da loc o mie de interpretari,dar nu asa este scris in Tanach.
Psalmul 82 in Tanac spune asa.Elochim nitav beedat-El.=Eida=etnie.
Eidat -El=Casa lui Israel sau poporul lui Israel sau poporul lui Dumnezeu.
Cite variante vrei sa-i dai.
Deci Dumnezeu se gaseste in mijlocul poporului sau
.Partea a doua a versetului;Bekerev Elochim Ispot.De aproape judeca Dumnezeu.
Ce vrea sa spuna asta?Ca Dumnezeu este aproape,el judeca cu dreptate ca vede tot ce se intimpla.Adica el nu da dispozitii de la departare,fara sa stie care este adevarul.Vezi si contextul psalmului mai departe,si vei intelege perfect ce am spus eu.
Nu luati lucrurile asa cum sint traduse in romaneste ca e vai ,sau bai.
O foarte mica greseala de traducere schimba sensul ca macazul trenului.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Vin Oct 22, 2010 4:27 pm

Soimos a scris:


Ingerii decazuti sau nephilimi,sint acei din geneza numiti "fiii de D-zeu" ... "benej ha'elohim ( בני היי )" ("Fii lui, ai lui Dumnezeu"

.... In cartea lui Enoh sunt entitati ceresti sub forma de ingeri decazuti ... ei erau mai mari si mai puternici ca oamenii (ex ca Dumnezeu biblic)

Despre fiii lui Dumnezeu amintiti in Geneza citisem; am fost contrariata la acea vreme; teologii pe care am avut ocazia sa-i provoc la dialog nu au stiut decat sa faca uz de tactica lor de tergiversare.
Termenul de nephilimi l-am mai intalnit pe undeva - nu-mi amintesc in ce context. Pana la urma ce s-a intamplat cu ei? Mai sunt amintiti undeva in afara de Enoh? Cartea lui nu a fost acceptata de canonul V.T. nu-i asa? Ce anume deranja?
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Vin Oct 22, 2010 5:26 pm

”The Nephilim are beings mentioned twice in the Hebrew Bible; in Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33. Traditions about the Nephilim are also found in a number of other Jewish and Christian writings.

Nephilim in the Hebrew Bible
(Translations according to New International Version. Note that translations frequently differ. In the King James Version of the Bible, "Nephilim" is translated as "giants" in the following examples.)

The term "Nephilim" occurs just twice in the Hebrew Bible, both in the Torah. The first is Genesis 6:1-4, immediately before the Noah's ark story:
1. When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them,
2. the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
3. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4. The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

The second is Numbers 13:32-33, where the Hebrew spies report that they have seen fearsome giants in Canaan:
32. And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size.
33. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

Etymology
This subject also relates to the etymology and meaning of the phrase sons of God.

"Nephilim" (נְפִילִים) probably derives from the Hebrew root npl (נָפַל), "to fall" which also includes "to cause to fall" and "to kill, to ruin". The Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon gives the meaning as "giants"[1] Robert Baker Girdlestone[2] argued the word comes from the Hiphil causative stem. Adam Clarke took it as passive, "fallen", "apostates". Ronald Hendel states that it is a passive form "ones who have fallen", equivalent grammatically to paqid "one who is appointed" (i.e. overseer), asir, "one who is bound", (i.e. prisoner) etc.[3][4]

Arguments from culture and mythology

It is sometimes claimed[12] that in Aramaic culture, the later term niyphelah refers to the Constellation of Orion, and thus nephilim to the offspring of Orion in mythology. However Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon notes this as a "dubious etymology"and "all very precarious",[13] and no evidence is forthcoming that Orion had any offspring, either in Aramaic astronomy or myth.

J. C. Greenfield mentions that "it has been proposed that the tale of the Nephilim, alluded to in Genesis 6 is based on some of the negative aspects of the apkallu tradition".[14] The apkallu (sages) were seven in number, legendary culture-heroes from before the Flood, of human descent, but possessing extraordinary wisdom from the gods, and one of the seven apkallu, Adapa, was therefore called "son of Ea"[15], despite his human origin. The tradition of the Seven Sages became widespread in the 2nd and 1st millennia. However the seven apkallu do not fall, nor have offspring, and are not sons of the fallen.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Biblical references

Several tribes are encountered in the campaign of the Five Kings in Abraham's day that some argue might be Nephilim or hybrids of Nephilim. They are described as having become several tribes occupying the lands around the Valley of Siddim (Dead Sea) and evidently intermixed with the Canaanites.

Genesis 14 and Deuteronomy 2 name these tribes as the Rephaim ("titans", children of "Rapha"), Zuzim or Zamzummim ("terrible ones"), Emim, Horites, and Anakim ("crushing tyrants"). The tribe of the Anakim are directly connected with the Nephilim in the false report of the spies described in (Numbers 13:33 ). The context of the passages suggest that the other tribes of giants were relatives of the Anakim or other lines of Nephilim, particularly the Rephaim whose giant descendant is described as living in Gath along with the Anakim Goliath and Lahmi (see below). The Rephaim are giants (in fact these peoples are generally described as being tall or large) and seem to have been thus matched with the Nephilim based on theEnglish rendering of "giants" in Genesis 6.

The tribe of the Anakim were descended from a giant named Anak, who was a son or grandson of a giant named "Arba", from which the ancient city of Hebron was originally called "Kiriath Arba" or "The City of Arba" because "Arba was the greatest man among the Anakim"[2]. This tribe was so tall, that the weak-kneed spies reported, "we are like grasshoppers to them."

Scripture describes how the tribes of giants were fought and destroyed by the tribes of normal men who replaced them, including the Israelites. Moses killed Og, king of the Rehpaim who lived on the Golan heights near Mt. Hermon. Og had a bed nine cubits long (13.5 to 15.5 feet, depending on which cubit was used) and was called "last of the remnant of the giants"[3]. Og may be the source of the word "ogre" in the English language.

Joshua drove the three remaining sons of Anak out of Hebron in his first campaignm. They evidently reoccupied the city of Hebron while Joshua was waging his campaign against Canaanite cities in the North. Caleb later retook Hebron and killed the three giants[4].

Later David and Saul fought a remnant of smaller giants who had taken refuge in the Philistine city of Gath. They included Goliath, who was about nine feet tall, and his brother Lahmi "whose spear had a shaft like a weaver's rod". The last of the Gittite giants was slain, "In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot—twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha"[5].

The last Scriptural reference to the giants may be Isaiah 45:14 , which prophecies that Sabean "men of stature" will become slaves in chains of the redeemed Israelites.

The characteristics of these tribes described in Scripture:
Their height was two or three times the height of normal men.
They were associated with some kind of unholy intermixing before the Flood.
They were closely associated with the wicked Canaanites after the Flood.
In one case they are described as having polydactyly (extra fingers and toes).
Unlike the Canaanites, there are no examples of Nephilim who became followers of God.

Apocryphal references

The Nephilim are described in great detail in the Book of Jubilees and Book of Enoch. Both of these books have been traditionally rejected as apocryphal by the European Church. However, they were both considered canonical by the Ethiopic Church from the time of Christ until today, and the Book of Enoch was quoted in the Biblical Epistle of Jude.

Jubilees has the following to say about the sons of God and the Nephilim:
"And in the second week of the tenth jubilee [449-55 A.M.] Mahalalel took unto him to wife Dinah, the daughter of Barakiel the daughter of his father's brother, and she bare him a son in the third week in the sixth year, [461 A.M.] and he called his name Jared, for in his days the angels of the Lord descended on the earth, those who are named the Watchers, that they should instruct the children of men, and that they should do judgment and uprightness on the earth." - Jubilees 4:15
"And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants. And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth -all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men (was) thus evil continually. And God looked upon the earth, and behold it was corrupt, and all flesh had corrupted its orders, and all that were upon the earth had wrought all manner of evil before His eyes. And He said that He would destroy man and all flesh upon the face of the earth which He had created. But Noah found grace before the eyes of the Lord. And against the angels whom He had sent upon the earth, He was exceedingly wroth, and He gave commandment to root them out of all their dominion, and He bade us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold they are bound in the midst of them, and are (kept) separate. And against their sons went forth a command from before His face that they should be smitten with the sword, and be removed from under heaven. And He said 'My spirit shall not always abide on man; for they also are flesh and their days shall be one hundred and twenty years'. And He sent His sword into their midst that each should slay his neighbour, and they began to slay each other till they all fell by the sword and were destroyed from the earth." - Jubilees 5:1-8

The Book of Enoch has the following to say about them:
"It happened after the sons of men had multiplied in those days, that daughters were born to them, elegant and beautiful. And when the angels, the sons of heaven, beheld them, they became enamoured of them, saying to each other, Come, let us select for ourselves wives from the progeny of men, and let us beget children. Then their leader Samyaza said to them; I fear that you may perhaps be indisposed to the performance of this enterprise; And that I alone shall suffer for so grievous a crime.
But they answered him and said; We all swear;
And bind ourselves by mutual execrations, that we will not change our intention, but execute our projected undertaking. Then they swore all together, and all bound themselves by mutual execrations. Their whole number was two hundred, who descended upon Ardis, which is the top of mount Armon.
That mountain therefore was called Armon, because they had sworn upon it, and bound themselves by mutual execrations. [Mt. Armon, or Mt. Hermon, derives its name from the Hebrew word herem, a curse.]
These are the names of their chiefs: Samyaza, who was their leader, Urakabarameel, Akibeel, Tamiel, Ramuel, Danel, Azkeel, Saraknyal, Asael, Armers, Batraal, Anane, Zavebe, Samsaveel, Ertael, Turel, Yomyael, Arazyal. These were the prefects of the two hundred angels, and the remainder were all with them.
Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.
And the women conceiving brought forth giants,
Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them; When they turned themselves against men, in order to devour them; And began to injure birds, beasts, reptiles, and fishes, to eat their flesh one after another, and to drink their blood. Their flesh one after another. [Or, "one another’s flesh." R.H. Charles notes that this phrase may refer to the destruction of one class of giants by another.]
Then the earth reproved the unrighteous.
Moreover Azazyel taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.
Impiety increased; fornication multiplied; and they transgressed and corrupted all their ways.
Amazarak taught all the sorcerers, and dividers of roots: Armers taught the solution of sorcery; Barkayal taught the observers of the stars, Akibeel taught signs; Tamiel taught astronomy; And Asaradel taught the motion of the moon,
And men, being destroyed, cried out; and their voice reached to heaven." - Enoch 6-7.”

http://www.nwcreation.net/nephilim.html

Scuze pentru postarea in limba engleza, dar am inserat si link-urile pentru cei ce vor sa traduca textul cu Google.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Sam Oct 23, 2010 10:20 am

"Arguments based on etymology
A possible connection with fallen-ness may exist in the fallen warriors of Ezekiel 32:27, where a change to the Massoretic Text reading gibborim nophelim (גִּבֹּורִים נֹפְלִים "fallen mighty ones") would produce the reading gibborim nephilim.[5][6]. As the text stands "And they shall not lie with the fallen mighty of the uncircumcised, which are gone down (yaradu יָרְדֽוּ) to the grave with their weapons of war:", but this could become the gibborim nepilim of the uncircumcised.[7] In Genesis 6:4 they are described as "ancient warriors, the men of renown". In Numbers 13:32-33 they are a race of giants native to Canaan. (The idea that there were giants in Canaan when the Israelites arrived is found elsewhere, for example in Amos 2:9, where Yahweh reminds the prophet that he "destroyed the Amorites before you, whose height was as the height of cedar trees").[8] The two are tied together by Genesis 6:4, "the nephilim were on the earth in those days (before the Flood), and also after," and most later compositions and translations, including the Septuagint, therefore understand the nephilim to be giants.[9]

The nature of the nephilim is complicated by the ambiguity[citation needed] of Genesis 6:4, "the sons of God joined with the daughters of humankind, who bore them children - they were the ancient warriors, the men of renown." Richard Hess in The Anchor Bible Dictionary takes it as read that the nephilim are the offspring,[10] as does P. W. Coxon in Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible[11]

[edit] Arguments from culture and mythology
It is sometimes claimed[12] that in Aramaic culture, the later term niyphelah refers to the Constellation of Orion, and thus nephilim to the offspring of Orion in mythology. However Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon notes this as a "dubious etymology"and "all very precarious",[13] and no evidence is forthcoming that Orion had any offspring, either in Aramaic astronomy or myth.

J. C. Greenfield mentions that "it has been proposed that the tale of the Nephilim, alluded to in Genesis 6 is based on some of the negative aspects of the apkallu tradition".[14] The apkallu (sages) were seven in number, legendary culture-heroes from before the Flood, of human descent, but possessing extraordinary wisdom from the gods, and one of the seven apkallu, Adapa, was therefore called "son of Ea"[15], despite his human origin. The tradition of the Seven Sages became widespread in the 2nd and 1st millennia. However the seven apkallu do not fall, nor have offspring, and are not sons of the fallen.

[edit] Genesis 6 - two interpretations
There are effectively two views[16] regarding the identity of the Nephilim, which follow on from alternative views about the identity of the sons of God:

offspring of Seth. The Qumran (Dead sea) scroll fragment 4Q417 (4QInstruction) contains the earliest known reference to the phrase "children of Seth", stating that God has condemned them for their rebellion. (Nonetheless, a few commentators dispute the interpretation of this reference.)[citation needed] Other early references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain, are found in rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible.
offspring of angels. A number of early sources refer to the "sons of heaven" as "Angels". The earliest such references[17] seem to be in the Dead Sea scrolls, the Greek, and Aramaic Enochic literature, and in certain Ge'ez manuscripts of 1 Enoch (mss A-Q) and Jubilees[18] used by western scholars in modern editions of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha[19]. However, "Angels" in this context has sometimes been considered to be a sarcastic epithet for the offspring of Seth who rebelled (see above). The earliest statement in a secondary commentary explicitly interpreting this to mean that angelic beings mated with humans, can be traced to the rabbinical Targum Pseudo-Jonathan, and it has since become especially commonplace in modern-day Christian commentaries.
Alternatively, there are those that do not take either view, and hold that they are not historical figures, and are ancient imagery with questionable meaning.[20]

[edit] The fallen angels interpretation
The New American Bible commentary draws a parallel to the Epistle of Jude and the statements set forth in Genesis, suggesting that the Epistle refers implicitly to the paternity of Nephilim as heavenly beings who came to earth and had sexual intercourse with women.[21] The footnotes of the Jerusalem Bible suggest that the Biblical author intended the Nephilim to be an "anecdote of a superhuman race".[22] Genesis 6:4 implies that the Nephilim have inhabited the earth in at least two different time periods—in antediluvian times "and afterward." If the Nephilim were supernatural beings themselves, or at least the progeny of supernatural beings, it is possible that the "giants of Canaan" in Book of Numbers 13:33 were the direct descendants of the antediluvian Nephilim, or were fathered by the same supernatural parents.

Some Christian commentators have argued against this view,[23] citing Jesus' statement that angels do not marry.[24] Others believe that Jesus was only referring to angels in heaven.[25]

[edit] In Second Temple Judaism
Main articles: Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, and Watcher (angel)
The story of the Nephilim is chronicled more fully in the Book of Enoch. The Greek, Aramaic, and main Ge'ez manuscripts of 1 Enoch and Jubilees obtained in the 19th century and held in the British Museum and Vatican Library, connect the origin of the Nephilim with the fallen angels, and in particular with the egrḗgoroi (watchers). Samyaza, an angel of high rank, is described as leading a rebel sect of angels in a descent to earth to have sexual intercourse with human females:

And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it...
—[26]
According to these texts, the fallen angels who begat the Nephilim were cast into Tartarus (Greek Enoch 20:2)[27], a place of 'total darkness'. However, Jubilees also states that God granted ten percent of the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim to remain after the flood, as demons, to try to lead the human race astray (through idolatry, the occult, etc.) until the final Judgment.

In addition to Enoch, the Book of Jubilees (7:21–25) also states that ridding the Earth of these Nephilim was one of God's purposes for flooding the Earth in Noah's time. These works describe the Nephilim as being evil giants.

Targum Pseudo-Jonathan identifies the Nephilim as Shemihaza and the angels in the name list from 1 Enoch.[28] b Yoma 67, PRE22 and 1 QapGen ar ii 1 also identify the Nephilim as the angels that fell.

There are also allusions to these descendants in the Catholic deuterocanonical books of Judith 16:6, Sirach, Sirach 16:7, Baruch 3:26–28, and Wisdom of Solomon 14:6, and in the non-deuterocanonical 3 Maccabees 2:4.

In the New Testament Epistle of Jude 14-15 cites from 1 Enoch 1:9, which many scholars believe is based on Deuteronomy 33:2.[29][30][31] To most commentators this confirms that the author of Jude regarded the Enochic interpretations of Genesis 6 as correct, however others[32] have questioned this.

[edit] The descendants of Seth and Cain interpretation
Despite the apparent prevalence of Enochic interpretations such as 1 Enoch, Jubilees, Philo[33], in Second Temple Judaism, and at Qumran (e.g. Ogias the Giant), orthodox Judaism has always taken a consistent line against the idea that Genesis 6 refers to angels or that angels could intermarry with men. Shimon bar Yochai pronounced a curse on anyone teaching this idea. Rashi and Nachmanides followed this. Pseudo-Philo, Biblical Antiquities 3:1-3 may also imply that the "sons of God" were human.[34] Consequently, most Jewish commentaries and translations describe the Nephilim as being from the offspring of "sons of nobles", rather than from "sons of God" or "sons of angels".[35] This is also the rendering suggested in the Targum Onqelos, Symmachus and the Samaritan Targum which read "sons of the rulers", where Targum Neophyti reads "sons of the judges".

Likewise, a long-held view among some Christians is that the "sons of God" who fathered the Nephilim spoken of in the text, were in fact the formerly righteous descendants of Seth who rebelled, while the "daughters of men" were the unrighteous descendants of Cain, and the Nephilim the offspring of their union.[36] This view dates to at least the 3rd century AD, with references throughout the Clementine literature[37], as well as in Sextus Julius Africanus,[38], Ephrem the Syrian[39] and others (see below, "In other texts"). Holders of this view[40] have looked for support in Jesus' statement that "in the days before the flood they (humans) were marrying and giving in marriage"[41]

Some individuals and groups, including St. Augustine, John Chrysostom, and John Calvin, take the view of Genesis 6:2 that the "Angels" who fathered the Nephilim referred to certain human males from the lineage of Seth, who were called sons of God probably in reference to their being formerly in a covenantal relationship with Yahweh (cf. Deuteronomy 14:1; 32:5); according to these sources, these men had begun to pursue bodily interests, and so took wives of the daughters of men, e.g., those who were descended from Cain or from any people who did not worship God.

This also is the view of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church[42], supported by their own Ge'ez manuscripts and Amharic translation of the Haile Selassie Bible - where the canonical books of 1 Enoch and Jubilees differ from western academic editions.[43] The "Sons of Seth view" is also the view presented in a few extra-Biblical, yet ancient works, including Clementine literature, the 3rd century Cave of Treasures, and the ca. 6th Century Ge'ez work The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan. In these sources, these offspring of Seth were said to have disobeyed God, by breeding with the Cainites and producing wicked children "who were all unlike", thus angering God into bringing about the Deluge, as in the Conflict:

Certain wise men of old wrote concerning them, and say in their [sacred] books, that angels came down from heaven, and mingled with the daughters of Cain, who bare unto them these giants. But these [wise men] err in what they say. God forbid such a thing, that angels who are spirits, should be found committing sin with human beings. Never, that cannot be. And if such a thing were of the nature of angels, or Satans, that fell, they would not leave one woman on earth, undefiled... But many men say, that angels came down from heaven, and joined themselves to women, and had children by them. This cannot be true. But they were children of Seth, who were of the children of Adam, that dwelt on the mountain, high up, while they preserved their virginity, their innocence and their glory like angels; and were then called 'angels of God.' But when they transgressed and mingled with the children of Cain, and begat children, ill-informed men said, that angels had come down from heaven, and mingled with the daughters of men, who bare them giants.
[edit] Related terms
In the Hebrew Bible, there are a number of other words that, like "Nephilim", are sometimes translated as "giants":

Emim
the fearful ones
Rephaim
the dead ones
Anakim
the [long]-necked ones
Anakim (or Anakites) are the descendants of Anak, and dwelt in the south of Canaan, in the neighbourhood of Hebron. In the days of Abraham, they inhabited the region afterwards known as Edom and Moab, east of the Jordan river. They are mentioned during the report of the spies about the inhabitants of the land of Canaan. The Book of Joshua states that Joshua finally expelled them from the land, excepting a remnant that found a refuge in the cities of Gaza, Gath, and Ashdod. The Philistine giant Goliath, whom David[44] later encountered, was supposedly a descendant of the Anakim.

The land, through which we have gone to spy it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people that we saw in it are of great height. And there we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak, who come from the Nephilim), and we seemed to ourselves like grasshoppers, and so we seemed to them.
—[45]
It is more commonly suggested by traditional Jewish sources (such as the Midrash) that the spies saw large and powerful inhabitants in Canaan and because of their own fears, cowardice, and inadequate faith in Yahweh, saw themselves as grasshoppers in the eyes of the Canaanites, whether they were actual "giants" or not.

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Sam Oct 23, 2010 10:31 am



Sa nu zici ca nu ti-am zis ...daca vrei sa postezi ...fa - o in limba oficiala a acestei tari!

Ai si Googelul ca ajutor ...si pe deasupra nici cand nu a fost o traducere mai usoara !

Deci spor la lucru!
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 24, 2010 12:15 pm

Existenta lui Dumnezeu nu poate fi dovedita stiintific niciodata, nici 0 % nici 100%! In ebraica Numele lui Dumnezeu este YHWH care inseamna simplu "EU SUNT". Acum stiinta sa se bata in cap si sa explice ce nu inseamna sau ce inseamna aceste cuvinte. Stiinta fara cuvinte este ireversibila, la fel si cuvintele fara cunoStiinta. Nu cautati sa dovediti empiric Existenta sau inexistenta lui Dumnezeu, nu veti putea!!!

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 24, 2010 3:44 pm

ektor a scris:
Existenta lui Dumnezeu nu poate fi dovedita stiintific niciodata, nici 0 % nici 100%! In ebraica Numele lui Dumnezeu este YHWH care inseamna simplu "EU SUNT". Acum stiinta sa se bata in cap si sa explice ce nu inseamna sau ce inseamna aceste cuvinte. Stiinta fara cuvinte este ireversibila, la fel si cuvintele fara cunoStiinta. Nu cautati sa dovediti empiric Existenta sau inexistenta lui Dumnezeu, nu veti putea!!!
Pentru credinciosi Yahweh sau dumnezeu exista doar in mintea lor, pentru ceilalti inexistenta sa este evidenta.
Oamenii de stiinta sunt si ei oameni si au propria credinta sau necredinta care-si pune amprenta asupra activitatii lor stiintifice!
Noi, aici, nu incercam sa dovedim ceva ci doar facem eforturi pentru a deschide ochii celor ce cred in divinitatile inexistente!

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 24, 2010 5:01 pm

oare?

voi incercati ceva, si poate reusiti... dar, cu acei care sunt ca voi.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Dum Oct 24, 2010 9:23 pm

ektor a scris:
Existenta lui Dumnezeu nu poate fi dovedita stiintific niciodata, nici 0 % nici 100%! In ebraica Numele lui Dumnezeu este YHWH care inseamna simplu "EU SUNT". Acum stiinta sa se bata in cap si sa explice ce nu inseamna sau ce inseamna aceste cuvinte. Stiinta fara cuvinte este ireversibila, la fel si cuvintele fara cunoStiinta. Nu cautati sa dovediti empiric Existenta sau inexistenta lui Dumnezeu, nu veti putea!!!

In ivrit nu inseamna Eu sint,ci inseamna ;A fost este si va fi.Adica Haia ,hove si ihie.Toate aceste trei forme de existenta ,concentrate in 4 litere.
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Lun Oct 25, 2010 5:25 am

gugushtiuc a scris:
oare?

voi incercati ceva, si poate reusiti... dar, cu acei care sunt ca voi.

Da, poate!
Cu ceilalti... depinde de oameni, delirantii traiesc in lumea lor si nu pot fi scosi de acolo decat cu tratament medical, habotnicii si-au pierdut ratiunea si au inlocuit-o cu credinta si asa vor ramane, iar cu oamenii normali se poate discuta si se poate ajunge la o intelegere a lucrurilor!

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Lun Oct 25, 2010 5:28 am

Anticristul a scris:
In ivrit nu inseamna Eu sint,ci inseamna ;A fost este si va fi.Adica Haia ,hove si ihie.Toate aceste trei forme de existenta ,concentrate in 4 litere.

Ce limba sau dialect vorbea Moise, cel care l-a definit pe YHWH? Vorbea ivrit?

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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Lun Oct 25, 2010 6:27 pm

De la Moise la David nu au fost trecut nici 400 de ani,si David scrie psalmii intr-un ivrit de invidiat asa cum scrisese si Eminescu Luceafarul.
Moise a fost initiat in toate tainele egiptului alaturi de Ramses,dar sa nu uitam ca a petrecut o mare parte din viata in familie ,alaturi de parinti.
Asta daca o luam asa cum gasim scris.
Si David a fost initiat,sa nu crezi ca a scris niste versuri doar ca sa-si omoare vremea .
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MesajSubiect: Re: Despre cer   Mar Oct 26, 2010 5:58 pm

de cine a fost initiat David?
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